Notes - Invincible
Apr. 14th, 2009 04:40 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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wariskindFic link
Confession: Until I wrote this fic, I didn't care all that much for Guy, despite loving Sacae and the other (nomadic) Sacaen characters. The only reason I decided to write this, originally, was because I was hashing out timeline issues -- and one of the things I kept getting stuck on was the "Saint of Swords" moniker. Guy's ending states that he becomes the "Saint of Swords"; however, by the time of FE6, it's Karel who bears that title (and eventually his niece Fir who "inherits" it from him in her ending). Very curious... especially when you consider 1.) the Karel/Guy A support, in which they promise to hold a duel one year post-game ending, and 2.) Karla.
It's heavily implied in both games that Karla (and her illness/subsequent death) plays a huge if not the main role in causing Karel's change in character; however, the timing is a bit strange and difficult to reconcile if we want to figure out the "Sword Saint" thing. Bartre/Karel's A support in FE6 reveals that the first time he and Karel met was after Karla fell ill. Which... okay, is maybe explainable if Karel kept to himself/his support group (Dart, Geitz, Lucius, Karla, Guy) for the most part during FE7. Bartre in FE7 is pretty dense, after all, so it's possible they didn't really have a proper "meeting" until a few years afterwards.
Other things we know:
- Noah's village was saved by Karel when Noah was very young. At this point the "Sword Saint" figure already existed (Noah credits the savior as the Sword Saint), though Karel reveals that the incident Noah remembers (or at least, knows about through the stories his mother has told him -- there is an implication that Noah was too young to have actually remembered it firsthand) occurred while Karel was still in his "demonic" mindset. Noah is in his (early) twenties, i.e. this must have been only a few years after FE7 at most. Therefore the "real" Sword Saint must have been Guy at this point (whether or not he's dead or alive), but people didn't actually know what he looked like (only, probably, that he was Sacaen -- hence why Karel is mistaken as the rumored figure -- rumors are funny that way). At the same time, however, "Sword Demon" rumors must have been fading or else the "Sword Saint" rumors had really begun to eclipse the "Sword Demon" rumors, which is an indication already that *something* must have happened. Maybe I'm not being very clear here -- but remember that twenty years later, people are still talking about the Sword Saint, while the Sword Demon seems to be completely forgotten.
- Although Karel says in FE6, "That time, I left you two without saying a word" (referring to Bartre/Karla after Karla first falls ill), and also says to Fir that he last saw her when she was a baby, he clearly must have gone back, as he recognizes Fir (and vice versa) and the two have a fairly good relationship. (Looking at the baby line in Japanese, it's actually said in a teasing tone.)
- Similarly, Karla can't have died all that long ago. We know that Fir really admired her mother, and that it was Karla's death that spurred her decision to go off on her own training journey. Fir's still in her teens -- she looks about 15 or 16. The youngest canonically independent travelers we see in this series are the pegasus knights in training -- who are about 13-14 if we assume Florina and Thany are the norm -- and Lleu (Ray), whom we know must have been as young as 10 when he first met Hugh. Therefore I'm guessing Karla's death must have been within the last five years at most -- more likely the last two or three, given the extra dangers present to a young girl on the road. (... Unless she crossdressed. I'm all for more crossdressing. XP)
What this begins to look like is that whatever the thing is that Karel "lost" that he mentions in his supports with Noah -- was not necessarily Karla. Don't get me wrong, I still think Karla played the primary role in his transformation -- but I've come to the conclusion that it must have been a mixture of things that began to really trigger the change. And Guy happens to fit particularly well into that hole. (More recently, I have been thinking that Lucius may also have played a role.) Karel's regret is awfully *personal* -- he seems to regret something that he did *directly* (as opposed to something he had no control over). And remember that he does not actually find out about Karla's death until Fir and/or Bartre finds and tells him in FE6.
With that said, I think the importance of the student/teacher relationship in Asian or at least in Chinese culture isn't something that translates well usually into Western contexts. But it is very important. I can't remember where or from whom I heard this (or even if I'm just making this up), but one cannot be truly considered a "master" until one has successfully raised a student, successfully passed on his/her knowledge/skills/teachings. Your students are your legacy, the proof of everything you have accomplished -- they go beyond your own accomplishments. And that is the key underlying principle that Guy recognizes, and Karel does not, in this fic. The debt that a teacher owes his/her student is equal to the debt that the student owes the teacher. By killing his own student, in this single act... Karel has lost something very profound, something that he will never be able to replace again.
And I suspect that on some level Karel knew this all along (hence why he tried to dismiss Guy as his student in their support A -- and why he again tries to shed that master/student relationship in my fic at the climactic point, though I'm not sure it came across that way or if it seemed more like a twisted acknowledgment of Guy as his equal, as it was a little bit of both)... and that this is also why, even years later, he refuses to directly take on another student. He refuses even to teach Fir! (But instead guides her informally, on a neutral basis.) I mean, isn't that just so telling? The fact that Guy seems to have been his ONLY student, EVER?
So yes... this was originally a Karel fic, intended to be from either Karel's POV or an omniscient POV. But at the last minute Guy jumped in and took over... and I'm beginning to find that I do adore Guy. He's really sweet. Kind of dumb, kind of goofy, well-meaning, really predictable i.e. prickly (Matthew has way too much fun messing with him)... but sweet. A total mama's boy. XD Not very "Sacaen" in the stereotypical sense, but still very much a child of the plains at heart (no matter that some of Matthew's strange Lycian ways seem to have rubbed off on him :P). Which means this is something that he just knows. The relationship between student and teacher is as natural to him as the relationship between individual and clan, child and mother, earth and sky.
He begins as a dreamer, as a guy searching for his place in the clan and by extension the world -- he can't shoot straight (and probably can't ride well, and given that riding and archery are like BREATHING to most Sacaen boys...), but at least he can wield a sword! And with that begins his desire to prove himself, to stand on his own as an individual, apart from his mother, apart from his clan. To become the strongest.
But really, why "the strongest"? In order to protect the tribe and his mother, he says. But at some point I think he must have forgotten about that. (Do you really need to be "the strongest" in order to defend your tribe/mother? *Can* you defend your tribe/mother when you've just been wandering around searching for stronger and stronger opponents to defeat all this time? And if I'm reading Sacae correctly -- family/clan comes before the individual. And Guy's ambitions places the individual before his clan.) I'm sure he always intended to return, eventually, but it's human nature to keep seeking and seeking. (This conflict is something I tried to write into this fic, but not enough, I think.)
And I think that's not something Guy really understood either, until his final duel. Karel was emblematic of everything he'd been aiming to achieve. And I think there's always that moment, once you've reached that long sought after pinnacle -- "What now?"
Which is where Echidna comes in. Because though this fic is very much about an ending, or endings, it's also very much about beginnings. And Echidna -- I debated with myself for the longest time whether or not I wanted to bring her into this. She's a Robin Hood figure, a folk hero type -- mysterious origins, mysterious endings. To expand on her background would ruin her character. But everyone has to start somewhere. And Echidna... to be honest, her past is just as foggy to me as it is to everyone else. But at least I could hint at some of the things I wanted to establish about her... while at the same time preserving the mystery. Is she an outsider (i.e. Etrurian)? A native of the Western Isles? Who knows.
What does matter is that she was a child criminal of some sort (or perhaps innocent and unjustly accused -- it really doesn't matter), sent to labor in the mines. When we meet her in this fic she's already very practical-minded, a survivor, but with a genuine compassionate streak and a certain blunt charisma. I will leave the truth behind what happened at the mines ambiguous (Karel did do the majority of the killing, but the convicts took the opportunity to stage an escape/uprising) -- Guy doesn't care, and I don't either. But it was an opportunity to stick in a little bit of world-building about Etruria and the Isles while I was at it. I will say, though, that she picked up her "basic skills" that Guy notices from the other convicts/miners. So her technique is a weird mix of things. (And how did she ever get her hands on that dragonkiller sword? I still have no idea. XD)
Anyway. Karel --> Guy --> Echidna (though of course, she inherits far more than what Guy gives her) --> ??? This is the thread that I've put into place and will be picking back up somewhat in Upon the Shoulders of the Dead, and further expanding on in Legacy. (Legacy will finally complete this whole fic-verse, raaaarrr, and will hopefully see things come full circle at last.)
(Random note: "Guy" is totally a nickname Matthew gave him when he couldn't or pretended he couldn't pronounce his actual Sacaen name. Unfortunately for the kid, it stuck. XP)
(Random note 2: I'm not sure whether or not this is part of my Sacaen arc. It sort of is and sort of isn't. I'm still pondering it. Will update this space with reasons when/if I figure it out.)
Confession: Until I wrote this fic, I didn't care all that much for Guy, despite loving Sacae and the other (nomadic) Sacaen characters. The only reason I decided to write this, originally, was because I was hashing out timeline issues -- and one of the things I kept getting stuck on was the "Saint of Swords" moniker. Guy's ending states that he becomes the "Saint of Swords"; however, by the time of FE6, it's Karel who bears that title (and eventually his niece Fir who "inherits" it from him in her ending). Very curious... especially when you consider 1.) the Karel/Guy A support, in which they promise to hold a duel one year post-game ending, and 2.) Karla.
It's heavily implied in both games that Karla (and her illness/subsequent death) plays a huge if not the main role in causing Karel's change in character; however, the timing is a bit strange and difficult to reconcile if we want to figure out the "Sword Saint" thing. Bartre/Karel's A support in FE6 reveals that the first time he and Karel met was after Karla fell ill. Which... okay, is maybe explainable if Karel kept to himself/his support group (Dart, Geitz, Lucius, Karla, Guy) for the most part during FE7. Bartre in FE7 is pretty dense, after all, so it's possible they didn't really have a proper "meeting" until a few years afterwards.
Other things we know:
- Noah's village was saved by Karel when Noah was very young. At this point the "Sword Saint" figure already existed (Noah credits the savior as the Sword Saint), though Karel reveals that the incident Noah remembers (or at least, knows about through the stories his mother has told him -- there is an implication that Noah was too young to have actually remembered it firsthand) occurred while Karel was still in his "demonic" mindset. Noah is in his (early) twenties, i.e. this must have been only a few years after FE7 at most. Therefore the "real" Sword Saint must have been Guy at this point (whether or not he's dead or alive), but people didn't actually know what he looked like (only, probably, that he was Sacaen -- hence why Karel is mistaken as the rumored figure -- rumors are funny that way). At the same time, however, "Sword Demon" rumors must have been fading or else the "Sword Saint" rumors had really begun to eclipse the "Sword Demon" rumors, which is an indication already that *something* must have happened. Maybe I'm not being very clear here -- but remember that twenty years later, people are still talking about the Sword Saint, while the Sword Demon seems to be completely forgotten.
- Although Karel says in FE6, "That time, I left you two without saying a word" (referring to Bartre/Karla after Karla first falls ill), and also says to Fir that he last saw her when she was a baby, he clearly must have gone back, as he recognizes Fir (and vice versa) and the two have a fairly good relationship. (Looking at the baby line in Japanese, it's actually said in a teasing tone.)
- Similarly, Karla can't have died all that long ago. We know that Fir really admired her mother, and that it was Karla's death that spurred her decision to go off on her own training journey. Fir's still in her teens -- she looks about 15 or 16. The youngest canonically independent travelers we see in this series are the pegasus knights in training -- who are about 13-14 if we assume Florina and Thany are the norm -- and Lleu (Ray), whom we know must have been as young as 10 when he first met Hugh. Therefore I'm guessing Karla's death must have been within the last five years at most -- more likely the last two or three, given the extra dangers present to a young girl on the road. (... Unless she crossdressed. I'm all for more crossdressing. XP)
What this begins to look like is that whatever the thing is that Karel "lost" that he mentions in his supports with Noah -- was not necessarily Karla. Don't get me wrong, I still think Karla played the primary role in his transformation -- but I've come to the conclusion that it must have been a mixture of things that began to really trigger the change. And Guy happens to fit particularly well into that hole. (More recently, I have been thinking that Lucius may also have played a role.) Karel's regret is awfully *personal* -- he seems to regret something that he did *directly* (as opposed to something he had no control over). And remember that he does not actually find out about Karla's death until Fir and/or Bartre finds and tells him in FE6.
With that said, I think the importance of the student/teacher relationship in Asian or at least in Chinese culture isn't something that translates well usually into Western contexts. But it is very important. I can't remember where or from whom I heard this (or even if I'm just making this up), but one cannot be truly considered a "master" until one has successfully raised a student, successfully passed on his/her knowledge/skills/teachings. Your students are your legacy, the proof of everything you have accomplished -- they go beyond your own accomplishments. And that is the key underlying principle that Guy recognizes, and Karel does not, in this fic. The debt that a teacher owes his/her student is equal to the debt that the student owes the teacher. By killing his own student, in this single act... Karel has lost something very profound, something that he will never be able to replace again.
And I suspect that on some level Karel knew this all along (hence why he tried to dismiss Guy as his student in their support A -- and why he again tries to shed that master/student relationship in my fic at the climactic point, though I'm not sure it came across that way or if it seemed more like a twisted acknowledgment of Guy as his equal, as it was a little bit of both)... and that this is also why, even years later, he refuses to directly take on another student. He refuses even to teach Fir! (But instead guides her informally, on a neutral basis.) I mean, isn't that just so telling? The fact that Guy seems to have been his ONLY student, EVER?
So yes... this was originally a Karel fic, intended to be from either Karel's POV or an omniscient POV. But at the last minute Guy jumped in and took over... and I'm beginning to find that I do adore Guy. He's really sweet. Kind of dumb, kind of goofy, well-meaning, really predictable i.e. prickly (Matthew has way too much fun messing with him)... but sweet. A total mama's boy. XD Not very "Sacaen" in the stereotypical sense, but still very much a child of the plains at heart (no matter that some of Matthew's strange Lycian ways seem to have rubbed off on him :P). Which means this is something that he just knows. The relationship between student and teacher is as natural to him as the relationship between individual and clan, child and mother, earth and sky.
He begins as a dreamer, as a guy searching for his place in the clan and by extension the world -- he can't shoot straight (and probably can't ride well, and given that riding and archery are like BREATHING to most Sacaen boys...), but at least he can wield a sword! And with that begins his desire to prove himself, to stand on his own as an individual, apart from his mother, apart from his clan. To become the strongest.
But really, why "the strongest"? In order to protect the tribe and his mother, he says. But at some point I think he must have forgotten about that. (Do you really need to be "the strongest" in order to defend your tribe/mother? *Can* you defend your tribe/mother when you've just been wandering around searching for stronger and stronger opponents to defeat all this time? And if I'm reading Sacae correctly -- family/clan comes before the individual. And Guy's ambitions places the individual before his clan.) I'm sure he always intended to return, eventually, but it's human nature to keep seeking and seeking. (This conflict is something I tried to write into this fic, but not enough, I think.)
And I think that's not something Guy really understood either, until his final duel. Karel was emblematic of everything he'd been aiming to achieve. And I think there's always that moment, once you've reached that long sought after pinnacle -- "What now?"
Which is where Echidna comes in. Because though this fic is very much about an ending, or endings, it's also very much about beginnings. And Echidna -- I debated with myself for the longest time whether or not I wanted to bring her into this. She's a Robin Hood figure, a folk hero type -- mysterious origins, mysterious endings. To expand on her background would ruin her character. But everyone has to start somewhere. And Echidna... to be honest, her past is just as foggy to me as it is to everyone else. But at least I could hint at some of the things I wanted to establish about her... while at the same time preserving the mystery. Is she an outsider (i.e. Etrurian)? A native of the Western Isles? Who knows.
What does matter is that she was a child criminal of some sort (or perhaps innocent and unjustly accused -- it really doesn't matter), sent to labor in the mines. When we meet her in this fic she's already very practical-minded, a survivor, but with a genuine compassionate streak and a certain blunt charisma. I will leave the truth behind what happened at the mines ambiguous (Karel did do the majority of the killing, but the convicts took the opportunity to stage an escape/uprising) -- Guy doesn't care, and I don't either. But it was an opportunity to stick in a little bit of world-building about Etruria and the Isles while I was at it. I will say, though, that she picked up her "basic skills" that Guy notices from the other convicts/miners. So her technique is a weird mix of things. (And how did she ever get her hands on that dragonkiller sword? I still have no idea. XD)
Anyway. Karel --> Guy --> Echidna (though of course, she inherits far more than what Guy gives her) --> ??? This is the thread that I've put into place and will be picking back up somewhat in Upon the Shoulders of the Dead, and further expanding on in Legacy. (Legacy will finally complete this whole fic-verse, raaaarrr, and will hopefully see things come full circle at last.)
(Random note: "Guy" is totally a nickname Matthew gave him when he couldn't or pretended he couldn't pronounce his actual Sacaen name. Unfortunately for the kid, it stuck. XP)
(Random note 2: I'm not sure whether or not this is part of my Sacaen arc. It sort of is and sort of isn't. I'm still pondering it. Will update this space with reasons when/if I figure it out.)
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